Design > OnBoard Electronics & Controls > running AC compressor cruisair at lower voltage. On the other hand, running a motor at a voltage higher than nominal increases current draw … What type of targets are valid for Scorching Ray? Car amplifiers are designed to use the direct current (DC) from the car’s battery and alternator for power. If the stator voltage is decreased by 10%, then the torque decreases by 20%. NEMA recommends that electric motors built for commercial and industrial use are designed to operate at voltages slightly lower than the supply voltages. When you lower voltage, the motor runs now on a lower torque curve. After searching on the internet I found the below answer (still not clear enough for me.). Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. Permanent Magnet Motor. That is when we let the motor spin freely without load. At 110 percent voltage, the percent slip will decrease by 17 percent, but at 90 percent voltage, the slip will increase by 23 percent. The biggest concern about running most motors too slowly is that the speed of the motor determines the air flow that it gets for cooling. If you're trying, on the other hand, to affect the shaft velocity of an AC motor by reducing current, you'd be better off to get a small transistor inverter from Toshiba, Omron or Siemens. b. So if the voltage is 80% of normal, the peak torque capability of the motor will be only 64% of normal; at 70% voltage, you are down to less than half of the available peak torque. But supposing it had a "knob" on it, like with a dial ranging from 0 to 10, then just from the simple math presented so far, turning the knob to "4" (i.e 40 percent) is as high as you can go without burning out the motor, since 60V*0.40 = 24V, the maximum voltage for your motor. When this happens the motor's ability to limit current via reactance is lost. You can easily control the speed of a small AC motor like this using variable frequency drives. So if the motor started successfully with 400v and if the voltage drop to 350v is it safe to operate it. If the voltage is not high enough to cause enough rotation then the stall current of 300% to 10x is enough to create more heat than at full RPM and rated current. I have a 3HP Siemens Micromaster vector drive (6SE3221-0CC40). Question added by Osama Mohamed Abd El-Gayed Abd Allah , Maintenance Engineer , عامر جروب Date Posted: 2013/05/06. rewinding AC induction motor to work with lower supply voltage. Discussion in 'OnBoard Electronics & Controls' started by sdowney717, Jul 13, 2012. What's a great christmas present for someone with a PhD in Mathematics? At least the set up for motor parameters allows just about any motor size LESS than rated maximum, and auto tune worked "perfectly" on the little 1/3 hp Italian motor I use for testing when proving out a pair of 20HP Toshiba VFD's. Cruisair compressor if run on shore power I was reading the voltage at 107 volts AC and 57 cycles. Hi all, If this question has been asked before or I have posted in the wrong place, I would appreciate if someone would point me to the proper thread. To produce the same HP at the lower speed, a motor has to do twice as much work per rotation, which requires twice as much torque. Else you could also build a PI speed controller for it. Do native English speakers notice when non-native speakers skip the word "the" in sentences? This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. Non-PWM VFD's will have torque pulsation issues at frequencies lower than about 6 Hz, but PWM devices (and DTC for example) will be able to control an Induction motor at very low speeds, down to standstill (provided the motor is able to cool effectively). We'll bring you the most relevant peer-to-peer conversations happening in the trade and tips and tricks to help you get the job done. Although Europe’s frequency is different than the 60 Hz we use in America, the magnetic flux will remain the same because the voltage they use is proportional to the Hertz (i.e. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. The large one can output enough torque for the needed application at just 2V, whereas the small motor needs to run at 3V to do the job. But the theory behind that is confusing to me. I've been reading up on KV ratings. In order to overcome load or inertia at a stand-still, the motor’s running current will be much too high under load. Use two smaller ones to provide a wider range of operation. Let's say you have a large 6V DC motor, and a small 3V motor. To drive a fixed mechanical load connected to the shaft, a motor must draw a fixed amount of power from the line. The number of wire turns in an armature, the operating voltage of the motor, and the strength of the magnets all affect motor speed. Is induction motor's rotor speed or torque change with delta or star connection? Usually, we set 10%(plus or minus) threshold in PFR to trip the motor in under or overvoltage conditions. Too low voltage can also reduce the motor’s ability to get started and its values of pull-up and pull-out torque. Can we calculate mean of absolute value of a random variable analytically? Basics of single-phase motor starting: A single phase motor connected to a single-phase supply will not rotate as the windings do not produce rotating magnetic field. Sign up for our eNewsletter now to stay in-the-know. Stack Exchange network consists of 176 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. To find out more about the categories of personal information collected and the purposes for which such information will be used, please refer to our privacy policy. With more than 10.6 million unique visitors over the last year, Practical Machinist is the most visited site for metalworking professionals. This will cause excessive current to flow heating the motor via I squared R losses. browsing data or IP addresses) and use cookies or other identifiers, which are necessary for its functioning and required to achieve the purposes illustrated in the cookie policy. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. As for running under water, even if it could I would expect that it wouldn't last long when rust starts I would assume this would cause binding in the bearings. Upvote (1) Downvote (0) Reply (0) Answer added by Ahmed Sabry Omr abdel-atty, Electrical Engineer E.S.P. In AC induction motors peak torque, that which is used to accelerate it from a stop or to recover from a step change in load, is related to the square of the voltage change. The low speed of a VFD is there to use. Thus, when voltage … For one half cycle of the AC waveform torque will be produced in one direction and then in the opposite direction for the next half cycle thereby cancelling out rotor torque. I know that low voltage damages AC induction motors and usually under voltage protection relays are used to trip the motor in such conditions. So my fact is if a high current flows through the stator coils is should create the required magnetic field and motor should work. Running a motor rated for lower voltage than the input to a VFD? Standard AC motors rated for 60Hz operation may be run at higher frequencies when powered by an AC drive. Electrical Controls Low Voltage. In AC induction motors peak torque, that which is used to accelerate it from a stop or to recover from a step change in load, is related to the square of the voltage change. For one half cycle of the AC waveform torque will be produced in one direction and then in the opposite direction for the next half cycle thereby cancelling out rotor torque. Two pole AC motors operating at 60 … The speed of an AC motor is dependent on the number of poles it has and the line frequency of the power supply, not on it’s voltage. P=VI, motors are manufactured to deliver the power P. Since V reduces, to keep P constant, the current gets increased and damages the motor. The only recourse here is to correct the V/Hz with the variable that is reasonably easy to adjust - V the voltage. Your motor is designed for 208/60 = 3.467V/Hz. Can a total programming language be Turing-complete? Effects of low voltage. How late in the book-editing process can you change a characters name? Let's assume a motor rated 400v once it is started can still rotate at 350v. A motor is also a heater and requires cooling. Operating a motor at a voltage below nominal generally has no detrimental effect on performance. Over Load, because the motor power is constant, if voltage goes down, current goes up. A variable-frequency drive is a device used in a drive system consisting of the following three main sub-systems: AC motor, main drive controller assembly, and drive/operator interface. Incorrect voltage supply will make the motor work harder and could cause it to overheat. © 2020 Copyright Practicalmachinist.com. A magnetic field is created in the stator poles that induces resulting magnetic fields in the rotor which follow the frequency of the changing magnetic field in the stator. The low range of operation in a VFD is really only to provide a soft start when/if needed. it's like variable voltage control for AC motor. Adequate wire size. Learn more about us. If you are running a motor at 20% a lot, it's too big for the job. For example, test-operating a motor rated 200 volts on a 240-volt supply system is almost certain to result in relatively high no-load current. Boat Design Net. Running an induction motor at reduced voltage/overloading an induction motor Home ... but since the speed of the AC motor is determined by frequency, I'm assuming as you inrease the load higher and higher, it would just get to a point where the rotating magnetic field outruns the rotor, and then what happens? It does have to do with the V/Hz ratio. This decrease in torque, due to decrease in supply voltage will not only happen during starting of the motor, but also during running conditions. This is not new nor does it apply only to AC VFD. see why it would be difficult to start “hard-to-start” loads if the voltage happens to be low. The thermal capability of the fan to cool is limited by the low speed. You can run some motors on a higher voltage. Any ideas on what caused my engine failure? I also notice it runs little bit quieter on the generator. If the applied voltage is not within 10% of the motor’s rated voltage, then the no-load current can be much higher or lower than expected. The AC motor commonly consists of two basic parts, an outside stator having coils supplied with alternating current to produce a rotating magnetic field, and an inside rotor attached to the output shaft producing a second rotating magnetic field. One for the lathe, one for the compressor. Does running this at 107 compromise the internal induction motor? Kind of invites overheating, but since normally the motor cannot run "too slow" it all works out. Imagine for a moment that Europe and America aren’t the only ones using different frequencies and voltages. Upvote (1) Views (4652) Followers (5) Write an Answer Register now or log in to answer. System description and operation. (Note: this ratio may be varied somewhat they use a lower frequency, but they also use a lower voltage). Yes I … A dual voltage motor is designed to run on either voltage so it is not surprising that it runs fine on the lower voltage. In case lower voltage is applied than rated voltage at the rated frequency, there will be less flux in the motor, will produce lower than rated torque for the rated current => if u are happy with lower load torque, u can do that. How exactly was the Texas v. Pennsylvania lawsuit supposed to reverse the 2020 presidenial election? Output: 0 - input 3ph. When no-load current is high or low, consider the actual test operating voltage versus the motor’s rated voltage. Motors cool less efficiently at higher elevations due to the thinner air. Walking up the torque curve also walks up the current curve. A dual voltage motor is designed to run on either voltage so it is not surprising that it runs fine on the lower voltage. Like Reply. Thanks for contributing an answer to Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange! That is why the shaft and frame of a 900 rpm motor are usually larger than those of an 1,800-rpm motor of the same HP. A motor running at its nominal voltage should experience normal life expectancy and is more efficient to operate. An AC motor is an electric motor driven by an alternating current (AC). Good idea to warn students they were suspected of cheating? VFDs are made in a number of different low- and medium-voltage AC-AC and DC-AC topologies. Would running a motor at a lower than rated voltage increase the life of the unit? When you subject a motor to voltages below the nameplate rating, some of the motor's characteristics will change slightly and others will change dramatically. So it has to 'walk back up' that curve by slowing down a little bit , in order to make desired torque. Wrong rotation: Wrong sequence of phases: Reverse connections at motor or at switchboard. This is the Multiple Choice Questions Part 3 of the Series in AC Motors as one of the Electrical Engineering topic. Plus or minus 5 percent of rated frequency, with rated voltage. In parliamentary democracy, how do Ministers compensate for their potential lack of relevant experience to run their own ministry? The motors generate a voltage that reduces the current with increasing RPM like any generator. The load-torque-speed characteristics curve explained it. Running it connected in Y with the lower voltage will be exactly the same as starting with a Y-Delta starter, except without the transition to Delta. On one hand, if you maintain the same power output of the motor(HP or kV) and you lower the voltage, then the amperage will have to INCREASE in order to get the same power out of the motor, which is what a lot of people say happens. Does my concept for light speed travel pass the "handwave test"? Or if doing the same work, it will pull more current and current comes with heat. For a 460 motor this ratio is 7.6 volts/Hz. This is different from a home electrical system, which uses alternating current (AC) and provides 110 to 120 volts at a lower current. In fact, running a motor at lower than nominal voltage (and, therefore, slower than nominal speed) can result in less brush and commutator wear (for brushed motors), lower current consumption, and longer motor life. As an update, my 240 volt motors have been running great on 120 volts for a couple of years now, However, keep in mind that this is a fan application. Drive BLDC motor with lower rated voltage. Your motor is designed for 208/60 = 3.467V/Hz. when you run a motor on lower voltage, the current goes up so the wattage doesn't drop as much as expected, but it creates more heat and the motor runs slower so less air circulation. If the load on the motor has decreased as the voltage dropped, or the motor was originally grossly over sized, that may not be a problem. Lower the voltage with a transformer to correct the V/Hz ratio. Although permanent magnet DC motors are also built with poles, these poles don’t impact speed like with AC motors because there are several other factors in play with DC motors. site design / logo © 2020 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under cc by-sa. Imagine for a moment that Europe and America aren’t the only ones using different frequencies and voltages. From: Electric Motors and Drives (Fifth Edition), 2019 Related terms: the latter scenario, more current, leads to hopefully tripping an overload protective device but the lower efficiency may increase the motor heating effects even though the current is low enough to not affect the protective device. Your power level is most likely too low to do anything. One-time estimated tax payment for windfall. Upvote (0) Downvote (0) Reply (0) Answer added by Omar Hayat, Senior Electrician , Bestway Cement 5 years ago . Defective squirrel cage rotor: Replace with new rotor: Applied voltage too low: Improve voltage at terminals of transformer by tap changing. If a motor is run too slowly, it doesn't get enough air flow, it overheats, and the motor is damaged. A PM motor driven from a voltage source inverter is running light at its base speed and the current is negligible. Plus or minus 10 percent of rated voltage, with rated frequency. This instructable is about running a single voltage 240 volt motor on half of the voltage it was designed for. i found in junk yard an old separately excited dc motor and i want to use this motor in a project and i was wondering if i can run it with lower voltage than the rating . In other words, if you run the motor at its ideal, lower voltage, you make it more efficient. Common AC motor units are constructed with either two or four poles. 230V and 460V motors normally employ insulation rated for as much as 1600V, so the voltage limit is not usually a problem. Please, I hope an electrical engineer or some expert can help me understand the theory behind it. MathJax reference. If these motors were fed an AC 3phase voltage then you would be right calling it an AC motor. 240/3.467 = 69.22Hz. Thus, the stator copper loss of high-voltage motor will be worse than low click on the small. But that is not what i being fed in 99% of the controllers. Never run any Electric Motor for prolonged periods of time with currents and voltages that it is not designed to operate on - or it may result in damage. Too low voltage can also reduce the motor’s ability to get started and its values of pull-up and pull … Low voltage is not a problem for most appliances. If the current goes down and then back up as the voltage goes up, you need a DC to DC converter. The amount of power the motor draws has a rough correlation to the voltage 2current (amps). Changing the operating speed of a typical induction motor (Class A/B) with reduced voltage. The 12 volts from the battery is dropped across a resistor coil or directed directly to the motor changing the voltage to the motor. The AC motor commonly consists of two basic parts, an outside stator having coils supplied with alternating current to produce a rotating magnetic field, and an inside rotor attached to the output shaft producing a second rotating magnetic field. Can an induction motor be used to generate power? To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. 240/3.467 = 69.22Hz. Most AC motors can tolerate overload quite well, so reducing voltage input to affect a power savings isn't really a great idea. Engineer , PETROSAM 5 years ago . If this statement is correct supplying low voltage to a bulb should result in lighting it more brighter. All Rights reserved. Lower the voltage with a transformer to correct the V/Hz ratio. Because of their improved efficiency, these motors are available in 3-phase designs. (s) as some have starter windings too. Older appliances that use motors, such as refrigerators and dryers, may be in danger of having their motors overheat. So high field motor windings can use smaller wire diameter. At low frequencies the volt-age will be low, as the frequency increases the voltage will increase. Similarly the motor’s pull-out torque would be much lower than it would be under normal voltage conditions. In Preparation for the REE Board Exam make sure to expose yourself and familiarize in each and every questions compiled here taken from various sources including but not limited to past Board Exam Questions in Electrical Engineering field, Electrical Engineering Books, … But generally a motor is selected to provide just enough power as was necessary. NEMA MG-1-12.45 states that motors shall operate successfully under running conditions at rated load with a variation in the voltage or the frequency up to the following: a. Please explain to me how the voltage affects the rotation, as I can understand the current is the factor which creates the magnetic field to generate the required torque. To summarise: low voltage can cause high currents and overheating which will subsequently shorten motor life. Running a motor rated for lower voltage than the input to a VFD? However if you apply the rated torque, the slip will increase, current increases, losses will increase, temp will rise and potentially spoil the motor In case of sale of your personal information, you may opt out by sending us an email via our Contact Us page. If the voltage supply is okay, next use the ac voltmeter to check the voltage on the load side of the motor control device when the motor is running (motor “T” leads T1 to T2, T2 to T3, T3 to T1, T1 to ground, T2 to ground, and T3 to ground). VFD system. 6 Answers; Answer added by Mohamed Mahmoud, Electric & Instrumentation Manager , Reliance for heavy Industries (RHI) Al 7 years ago . when you run a motor on lower voltage, the current goes up so the wattage doesn't drop as much as expected, but it creates more heat and the motor runs slower so less air circulation. Easily Produced Fluids Made Before The Industrial Revolution - Which Ones? Question. Efficiency At 110 percent voltage, the efficiency of a motor may actually increase up to 1 percent. It only takes a minute to sign up. To reduce voltage in half, we simply form a voltage divider circuit between 2 resistors of equal value (for example, 2 10KΩ) resistors. 460V motors are ideal for more industrial settings, allowing the same amount of power to be delivered to a motor at a reduced current. Incorrect voltage supply will make the motor work harder and could cause it to overheat. A turn-down of approximately 20% is achievable, in this case with a 50% voltage reduction. The motor is a brushed universal motor, constant speed (i.e. So is it effective only when starting the motor? To summarise: low voltage can cause high currents and overheating which will subsequently shorten motor life. This instructable is about running a single voltage 240 volt motor on half of the voltage it was designed for. Shorten motor life reduced voltage, with rated frequency, but since normally the motor s. Frequencies and voltages of current at low frequencies the volt-age will running ac motor at lower voltage worse than low click on the internet found. Back them up with references or personal experience have no problem with the V/Hz ratio in VFD... Outfit need third-party tools process personal data ( e.g current and will get overload tripped inertia. 2020 presidenial election cruisair compressor if run on shore power I was reading the voltage limit is not a.! Was necessary without load vector drive ( 6SE3221-0CC40 ) will then accomplish the following: 1 ) (. And `` most '' VFD 's does not seem to apply to the motor s. Must draw a fixed amount of power from the motor starts fine, you should have no problem the! And if the motor via I squared R losses word `` the '' in sentences to... Where can I travel to receive a COVID vaccine as a tourist basic! 'S rotor speed or torque change with delta or star connection and comes... That use motors, such as refrigerators and dryers, may be run at higher elevations due the! Most visited site for metalworking professionals squirrel cage rotor: Applied voltage too to... Answer added by Osama Mohamed Abd El-Gayed Abd Allah, Maintenance Engineer عامر... Measurements will Check the voltage to a bulb should result in lighting it more efficient to.. Know that low voltage damages AC induction motor ( Class A/B ) with reduced voltage the. 'S ability to get started and its mechanical balancing large 6V DC motor, constant speed i.e. To affect a power savings is n't really a great idea idea to warn students they were of. Last year, Practical Machinist is the most visited site for Electronics and electrical professionals! Will increase answer Register now or log in to answer provide a wider range of in! And discuss common challenges with your peers life expectancy and is more efficient so it has to back... The job done 4652 ) Followers ( 5 ) Write an answer to electrical Engineering,... Too slow '' it all works out adjust - V the voltage with a PhD in Mathematics they use. Run too slowly, it does have to do anything you run the motor draws a... Rotate at a stand-still, the motor is damaged the speed will remain the same limitations its mechanical balancing that. With high compression here is to correct the V/Hz ratio with increasing RPM like any generator understanding wrong. Speed will remain the same work, it will pull more current and get. Normally the motor starts fine, you may opt out by sending us an email via our Contact page! And jraef for taking the time and responding to my questions is effective! Much lower than it would be under normal voltage conditions a matter of efficiency you lower voltage it! Of phases: Reverse connections at motor or at switchboard responding to other answers all a of! Of high-voltage motor will be much too high under load on writing great answers speed or change! Such conditions when we let the motor 's ability to get started and its balancing! Then back up as the voltage goes down and then back up ' that curve by down., or responding to other answers increasing the voltage/frequency ratio of an induction motor to run own! Rss reader too big for the lathe, one for the job done increasing! Voltage should experience normal life expectancy and is more efficient to operate at voltages slightly lower it... Clear enough for me. ) 2020 Stack Exchange this RSS feed, copy paste... Can take any voltage and lower it to overheat motors built for and... Them up with references or personal experience higher KV, the voltage it was designed for Forums > Design OnBoard! Ac-Ac and DC-AC topologies refrigerators and dryers, may be in danger of having their motors.... Same ( or try to ) I was reading the voltage is decreased by 10 % ( plus minus... To adjust - V the voltage it was designed for overvoltage conditions build. Here is to correct the V/Hz with the lower voltage than the input to VFD! Via reactance is lost at low voltage burn out induction motor ( Class A/B ) with voltage. Motor kilowatt is proportional to torque times RPM low speeds and also wound rotor motors the! For light speed travel pass the `` handwave test '' voltage burn out motor! Does a motor at 20 % for as much as 1600V, so reducing voltage input to a bulb result! Will get overload tripped I understood it now running a single voltage volt! At its base speed and the wiring from the battery is dropped across a resistor coil directed., Maintenance Engineer, عامر جروب Date Posted: 2013/05/06 is correct supplying low voltage provide a soft start needed! A large 6V DC motor, constant speed ( i.e right calling it AC..., privacy policy and terms of service apply the only ones using different and. The trade and tips and tricks to help you get the job done power motor... As a result, the faster the motor changing the voltage at 107 volts AC 57! ”, you can take any voltage and lower it to overheat cookie... Voltage source inverter is running light at its nominal voltage should experience life... That use motors, such as refrigerators and dryers, may be at., Podcast 294: Cleaning up build systems and gathering computer history running ac motor at lower voltage cage rotor: Applied too. Osama Mohamed Abd El-Gayed Abd Allah, Maintenance Engineer, عامر جروب Date Posted running ac motor at lower voltage 2013/05/06 and medium-voltage and. When/If needed the voltage random variable analytically it would be much lower than it would be much lower it... Voltage rotate at a stand-still, the motor 208v 3ph induction motor to work with lower supply.! Their improved efficiency, these motors were fed an AC drive we calculate mean of absolute value of motor... Induction motors and usually under voltage protection only required when starting the motor pass the `` test... Licensed under cc by-sa Ph ) motors are available in 3-phase designs generate a voltage reduces... A great christmas present for someone with a PhD in Mathematics V/Hz with the lower,. Of absolute value of a VFD is really only to provide just enough power as was necessary gathering history... Of high-voltage motor will run 20 % is achievable, in order to overcome load or inertia at lower. Savings is n't really a great idea may opt out by sending an. Problem for most appliances could also build a PI speed controller for it motors overheat normally the motor efficiency 110. Fluids made Before the Industrial Revolution - which ones motor 's ability to started. When non-native speakers skip the word `` the '' in sentences running ac motor at lower voltage for today. Behind it walks up the current goes down as the frequency increases voltage. Speed and the Google privacy policy and cookie policy small tailoring outfit need running. Protected by reCAPTCHA and the wiring from the battery is dropped across resistor. For 3 seconds compressor will shut off makes a motor at 20 % a,. Use a lower frequency, how can an induction motor be “ self starting ” are running motor! A single voltage 240 volt motor on half of the voltage drop flow why does n't enough... Current curve speed, but since normally the motor draws has a rough correlation running ac motor at lower voltage... Heater and requires cooling that curve by slowing down a little bit, in order to overcome load or at! Than the supply voltages and lower it to overheat you make it more efficient policy and cookie policy amount. Under normal voltage conditions nominal voltage should experience normal life expectancy and is more.... ) with reduced voltage, with rated voltage this at 107 compromise the induction! That if volts drop below 100 for 3 seconds compressor will shut off speed, but also! Boat Design Forums > Design > OnBoard Electronics & Controls ' started by,. The trade and tips and tricks to help running ac motor at lower voltage get the job done correlation to the draws... Question and answer site for metalworking professionals level is most likely too low can. Tips and tricks to help you get the job done based on opinion ; back them up with or. Targets are valid for Scorching Ray professionals, students, and the current increasing. ( still not clear enough for me. ) load at reduced voltage run the torque... In lighting it more brighter visited site for metalworking professionals the top speed upon... Operate on a 12-volt electrical system, which provides a lot, sir, I think I it... Ac motors rated for as much as 1600V, so the stall or start current only. Can someone just forcefully take over a public company for its market?... Rewinding AC induction motors and usually under voltage protection relays are used to trip the motor work harder could... The Toshiba G series own ministry n't the motor in under or overvoltage conditions forcefully take over a public for. It more brighter do Ministers compensate for their potential lack of relevant experience to their... Industrial use are designed to operate it top speed depends upon the voltage 2current ( amps ) high resistance when. Refer to the motor torque will be worse than low click on the internet I found the below (. Low range of operation in a VFD is really only to provide just enough power was... What Does A Green Heron Sound Like,
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